Jason: All right on this special bonus episode for fundamentals week of the sales experience podcast, I have a very special guest Daniel Redman. He and I connected on LinkedIn and it's funny because from the moment, I saw his profile and his description of what he does. I literally felt like he might be my brother from another mother in terms of sales and coaching, consulting, marketing all of that. And as always what I'm gonna do is, I’m gonna put all of Daniel's links and info in the show notes everything that he's going to give me, so you can discover more about him.

But as you know my goal isn't to take up your time with a lot of fluff or interview type stuff and set up questions and background stories, so just want to get right into it. Daniel welcome to the Sales Experience Podcast.

Daniel: Thanks Jason and you know just to put it out there, I did get the results back from the 23 & Me test.

Jason: Yes?

Daniel: Yeah it turns out we're brothers.

Jason: Oh look at that, going way back way back somewhere.

Daniel: Several generations that goes back to the homeland, it’s like Hollywood platform for sure.

Jason: It's like we're all connected, it's probably eventually what 23 & Me is just gonna say is, it's all the same it's all it's all people. So, now when we chatted and we were gonna talk about sales, one of the hardest things that I had to decide like when I had approached you and you would approach me about being on the show was what the hell do we actually narrow down our conversation to. Now since its fundamentals week and you're all about marketing that drives inbound leads, as well as helping companies with their outbound campaigns and you know both where that all synergizes. What I want to talk about was building trust.

So, let's take this magical inbound warm call which is the pinnacle of what you'd want if you were a sales rep, right. The company is paid for marketing, leads or calls invested in making the phone ring, the rep answers like let's start in this conversation. What have you found well that works in building trust over the phone, that's literally an extension of that marketing?

Daniel: Yeah you know it's a really it's gonna sound really simple and just kind of cut right to the chase which I know you like. But you know the thing with an inbound call is you really, when you pick up that phone you have to understand that there's a probably several hours perhaps a week, maybe six months’ worth of invested time that, that person has put in to finding your company. Especially if we're talking about like a high ticket something that's a major investment you know you have to assume that this person on the phone actually has the upper hand when they're calling you and they're catching you off guard.

So you can't treat this like you would a cold call and your outbound and you're catching somebody on their heels, this person knows a lot about you before they're picking up the phone. And I think that coming to that realization and that understanding changes the way you should approach an inbound phone call.

Jason: And it's interesting when you say that, because I think about even times where there's been marketing and you know I've been at an organization where they're paying for some kind of lead, where there's no branding associated right. So, there's two different sides, there's hey I'm you know Toyota and I'm doing marketing and I want you to call in or walk into my dealership and then you know who I am. And then there is you know, I'm doing ads or you know doing something let's say on a Facebook Ad, where I'm driving traffic. You may not know what the brand is but you know you have an issue that you want solved.

It's interesting to then think that you know even if they don't know who you are as a brand, they still have some idea of what's going on or at least what they need. And they're coming at you what's theoretically somewhat armed especially in this day and age of so much information available, and you know what's at everyone's fingertips.

Daniel: Yeah that's really it right likes that person if they're motivated to pick up the phone even fill out a submit form online, there's a pain there you know. So, the game is you know how do I break this you know break down the conversation and you know find some common ground early with this person on an inbound call, so that I can get quickly to that challenge.

Jason: So, how do you like one of the fundamental things that I stand against and like all of my messages to go against and everything that I focus on, is to not sound like or be like that salesy, slick, slimy salesperson, right. The one that everyone thinks about when they hear sales or especially when they hear like used car salesperson, like everyone has that picture in their mind that instantly pops up. So, how do you like what have you found that works well independent of what's being sold, but just the you know the fundamentals of it for building that trust out of the gate with somebody brand new without breaking the barrier or trying too hard to be that that slick salesperson?

Daniel: Yeah, well I don't know if you know this about me Jason, but I'm extremely charming. So, you know for me it's.

Jason: Just natural, it just happens yeah you don't even know you help somebody else. It's like LeBron James trying to show someone else how to doesn't know he just does it right it's just amazing right, that's you know.

Daniel: So really you know the long the short of it is, man I really hate I kind of have a love/hate relationship with sales scripts right. Because a sale is great for the new on board that needs to learn the content, learn the material is coming from a place of ground zero and building up and gives you that right cadence and flow of communication. But as soon as I feel as though my sales hires understand conceptually the material, I tell them to rip up you know large portions of sales scripts.

Because if you're talking in natural language and speaking from a place of authenticity and people understand that and hear that and know that you're not a robot or a dialer which are becoming increasingly harder to decipher. I've seen some like new technology with dialers, like it's getting pretty intense with AI learning cooked in. But it's authenticity, like if I have flawless language and I don't skip a beat and it sounds perfect, then I start to really like lean towards the slimy salesperson right.

Like you want to be articulate and understandable and relatable, and I think that natural communication gets you part of the way there. Second thing is and if you're, I think everyone reads Voss at some point though the read or follow and watch videos with believe his first name is Chris Voss. He was the former negotiator that you know he says that when he's handling international negotiation situations, the very first thing he does with terrorists and not to say that sales prospects are terrorists in any way. But he puts himself in their shoes and he reflects what his knowledge of their experience is like.

So, the example he gives is a I believe and I might be misquoting this slightly, he says that he was dealing with a Haitian terrorist and he says to them, listen if I were you, I would hold this person hostage as well because your people have been you know brutally treated, enslaved by you know a British founders of the colonies. And you've had a hundred years of you know oppression in your country and your people haven't been taken care of very well. Am I right? And he puts himself in that person's shoes and any cuts tension. The first sensation of tension from a sales prospect whether it’s inbound or outbound etc. You can just hang up the phone. Tension is a killer is a deal killer on all sides.

Jason: So, it's super fascinating you talk about Chris Voss who I am not familiar with it all but I'll definitely look him up and put some links in the show notes when I find out more about him. But it's interesting how you relate that to sales and in our trust conversation right. Just so everyone knows like this isn't planned we didn't have a you know the thing that we're gonna walk through and cover all these points and make it sound you know ad-libbed and it's really not like this is just happening.

Because in the trust conversation one of the things that I have found that has worked amazingly well for myself in sales in you know selling directly to consumers, selling to managers to bosses, selling up the chain to owners. I work for whatever that case may be is, I have always found the knack and I don't shy away from telling the prospect, telling the other person exactly what I know they're thinking, and or what they're worried about, and bringing that to light.

Because that's, and there's a fine line right you know and I probably put this in a later episode or write about this but there's a thing called objecting with yourself. Where you're just bringing up issues, because you're scared they might be issues and then the prospect latches on to them and you just shoot yourself in the foot. Versus doing it intentionally like you said and saying, hey Mr. prospect I know that you received that letter in the mail and I know that you don't know what this about, and I'm sure you're concerned and I'm sure you've called other companies, but I'm sure that you also need help.

Like whatever that looks, like whatever a sales rep, a bad sales rep would be afraid to say like you're talking about Chris Voss, like whatever a bad negotiator would be afraid to say because you don't want to lose that leverage. I implore salespeople to say it to build trust, like I know you're worried that there's going to be a fee involved with this and I understand that and we'll get to that point later. Like just go after, go after the truth and be completely transparent.

Daniel: Yeah and I think that vulnerability plays an important role in that as well. One other thing that I like to train around is occasionally falling on the sword. And the one of the ways that you can do that is by mirroring the other person on the call. You know in person you would do this right like you would pick up some of the sink speaking cadence and mannerisms, behavior the person that you're selling to and that's some like, that's some fundamental sales you know knowledge that you learn early on.

But on a call the way that you can sort of simulate that is by asking someone and saying hold on a second listen. I just heard you say that you might be too old for this product, did I hear that correctly and what you've done is you've added a small layer of vulnerability. You've also put an emotional connection between you and the prospect. So, you are kind of hitting like tooth to trust angles at once. If that makes sense?

Jason: Yeah, and I think it's really the authenticity, the vulnerability, the transparency you know all of that when you come from that place as a professional salesperson, not just a salesperson who also has the goal of helping people in whatever it might be, right. So, there's one extreme which is you're helping someone out of a bad situation or helping them improve and transform their life right. Like maybe they need to get into a rehab program or get out of debt or you know whatever might be.

And then there's the other side where they just want to buy a product or service, like they want to buy a car which in their mind is helping them transform. But if you're doing all of that to help improve their situation, then it's all about the authenticity, the vulnerability and the transparency to have that trust with them. I mean and this is what's interesting and I don't want to totally go into interview mode, because anyone has me no interviews. But interview shows, but what's funny and I'll put a link for this because I think it's fantastic is that you wrote a LinkedIn article or post that's called the twelve Maxim's for sales leaders in marketing.

And there's one in particular that I thought was A, hilarious and B, 1,000 maybe a million percent true. And you list one of the Maxim's and I'm gonna paraphrase, it says, unless your name is Amazon Trust has been broken with the consumer. Which in this day and age is basically sad but true right, unless your name is Amazon then nobody's gonna trust you.

Daniel: Yeah, you're playing from behind you're just everybody else if you're not Amazon. And of course that's a little bit of a broad umbrella you know reflecting, not to beat those guys up too bad they can take it. But you know that's any major brand which you know the majority vast majority of us probably don't work for, but you know how do you call somebody and establish yourself if you don't have that big brand behind you. And that's kind of what it's you know hinting at, and you get lumped in with the you know that the 10,000 Robo dialers that are out there.

The companies that are instantly trying to sell you a website from overseas, the second you register domain, the IRS scam. You're a part of that if you're making an outbound phone call whether you want to be or not. So, how do you cut through the noise of that and the only way you can do that is by being human, being authentic, being trustworthy, being vulnerable, being a person. You know it's weird to say that but being a person is should be the most popular sales trend.

Jason: Well and you know what's interesting about that point about just being a person is why that's not just the norm in the culture within sales organizations under the broad umbrella of sales. I mean you know why salespeople organizations perpetuate this focus on being a certain thing or doing a certain thing or you know you could you can be a person and bring some of your skills as far as talking to people. But also use and memorize these 15 closing tactics to use and these lines that we know work really well in order to get people to buy.

Daniel: Yeah man, I could talk for the next hour about that.

Jason: Why do you have you have 15 closes that you tell everyone to use every time?

Daniel: Yes, and no more no, than yes because my belief is that you know well a couple things you know really there with closing as far as closing goes there. It's more about timing, confidence, the appropriate level of you know assertiveness less about the individual words in my opinion. I think people should learn closes, I think they should practice them, I think they should talk through them but in my opinion timing is so much more important and confidence. And you know being present rather than just spouting out words and regurgitating language, that to me it just never gets the gets the job done.

And I think the total balance and why we're in a place of sort of these two you know competing forces of script versus not script, human versus Robo. All these things you've got some major shifts and in sales, in particular that have happened over the last really seven or eight years that are affecting all of this. You and I are kind of from the same generation Jason, just knowing how old you are and how gray I am. But you know if you asked me what is a business development representative 10 years ago. I would describe that person as having a pretty substantial book of business that they've built over the years of a really nice network.

Somebody that can work a variety of different types of deals and sales strategies and communication patterns to make business happen. And that's how in a nutshell how I would describe but this is development. Today the average experience at the time of hire for a business development rep is 1.4 years and that number has tanked over the last six years. And it's this crazy downward trajectory of experience at higher for BDR's. So, you know what do you do with this growing sort of role within sales that you know you've got create systems you know. Because if you have inexperienced people in a role with a lot of demand and high volume, then you have to work within systems to do it.

So, it's a battle of systems versus authenticity and where do you find the happy medium between those.

Jason: Well, I think that you know talking about.

Daniel: You got me fired up

Jason: That’s good this is you know like the listeners knows this bonus episodes, ever a lot of mistakes if I got to make this into a three-part miniseries of conversation there you know. But so weird term a closing talking about authenticity, time with scripts all of that. I think in terms of trust like when I hear you talking about those things, it might sound really weird but there's a lot of trust that comes from being in control as a salesperson. And this may be weird and tell me if you disagree with this, but you know follow along.

So, you know when I think about a closing and I hear you talking about it the word that jumped into my mind was controlled. So, you use closing techniques to control the conversation and the direction hopefully and this is like what I've always told everyone I've talked to everyone I've trained you know any sessions I've ever done is that thankfully I use my powers for good and not for evil. And my goal is to actually help people better their situation, whether it's something I can offer to sell to them or it's a direction and they should go buy something else from somebody else is, but it's always control.

So, you think about some of the classic closes it's about control and I think there's a lot that you can build in trust, in the prospect by being in control. So, like I am the professional, I'm gonna take you on this journey, you can trust me, we will get there right. Like when you go into your doctor there's already an inherit level of trust because you know what it takes for that person to be a doctor. But when they tell you what to do and their guiding you through the process, you're you know you're trusting that you know they want to take care of you. And I think what's interesting is that you can build trust and prospects in many different ways.

One of which is just being in control of the process and having a system that also you know allows you to be a human.

Daniel: Yeah, that's it, I like the way you phrase that.

Jason: There we go now we're done, here we go. So its interesting thing, I never really you know obviously I think about control in terms of you know the classic is whoever's asking questions is in control. And so you want to make sure that you have control and you're asking questions and I'll cover that in a different episode. But you know also how control helps build the trust because it's like, hey you know follow me I know where you need to go based on what you've already told me.

Daniel: Yeah, and really that control it you don't just find it right at the end of the sales process right. Like you're building that control three calls ago and planning the sets for it and you know that that's what like a longer sales process and the high ticket closes needs to be is more of the multi-layered closes. We already talked about this early on, you exhibited that this is far and away the most important thing for. You know it's time for us to move forward you know, but you've already created several different layers of closing that are leading you to that that last ask for business.

So, that's the only thing I would add on to that is, like it doesn't just happen there right like it's a build.

Jason: Right, and what's interesting is that in the world that you're referring to is the multi called multi step longer process. You know when you're using the term BDR you're talking about more of a business-to-business sale right. My brain and my experience is mostly on the business to consumer where you know for most good interactions 60, 70 % of the closes happen in one phone call. So a new abound call comes in you know you help that person and then you move on. And so what's interesting is it's the same fundamentals right which is what I've been talking about this week and what you're all about in two different realms.

And sometimes you've got 20 minutes, you got to do it all and you got to go from zero to everything with all of these steps with the trust. Other times it's you've got three or four or five interactions maybe they're spread over weeks or months. You've got to do them all and not just do them all but you got to do them right and continue it on and be consistent. Which I think is really to your point about being authentic and being vulnerable and being who you are, because what's really difficult and I've seen people try to do this is they try to build trust, they try to be this salesperson. They think the person needs or the person that the company is trying to get them to be, it's not authentic for them and they can't really fake it for months and months on the long sale.

Right at some point they're gonna slip up, the truth is going to come out that they're actually human and not a sales machine robot with all the perfect answers right.

Daniel: Man B2C selling sounds super easy.

Jason: So here's the funny thing let's just normally side note on this conversation, it sounds really easy, but it’s not and it is right sometimes it is. Because it's super easy when somebody says, I want this thing. The problem is that depending on what you're selling or in the business of you know they may say they want help or they may want this thing, but they you know people don't want to change. For an organization to change that's a different thing because maybe there's a goal and there's a fundamental purpose and everyone's fighting in the same direction and you know they know they need this software, they know they need the solution or this marketing help.

For an individual to change for that one person you know everyone fears changed, no one likes change, no one wants to be uncomfortable and get outside their comfort zone. So, literally any time you're selling anything that somebody isn't already buying, then it requires change which is scary right. If they're already buying it, then you're just order-taking, but no matter what it is, there's some inherent danger that our primitive brain is worried about which is leading back into this tress conversation.

Daniel: Yeah, I mean yeah and I don't wanna -.

Jason: I know you were, I know you were what's funny is like, sometimes I think oh B2C would be super fun and that would be super easy. And it's like no that's not easy like it's never, sometimes it's easy it's a home run and it's you know it just happens and other times just like why don't you get it. Like I see your issue I see what you need help with I know what the answer is and you know and then that makes me reflect back to you, you know being a kid and you know my parents being like just do this thing.

I mean that doesn't make sense, why would I do that and they already know the answers they've lived enough life to know what the answer is. They just you know go let me screw it up until I figure it out I guess.

Daniel: Oh so your parents are or primarily right in the -.

Jason: They were probably, yeah I'd say for the first you know at least dozen years of my life they were right and then you know then things shifted and then I was right all the time. But yeah they were probably right about some things yeah.

Daniel: What would you say and we're gonna turn this into an interview style format Jason.

Jason: All right.

Daniel: Turn the tables on you, what would you say from a sales standpoint you learn from your parents.

Jason: You know I would say the biggest thing and this is a fundamental tenant for me is just and this is the kind of the buying silo which is also my selling style. It's just be honest and let the buyer buy, don't be pushy trying to sell right. Like there's, in sales everyone knows that you're out to get a benefit right. You're in sales as a business because you're gonna get something out of it right obviously commission or income or keep your job whatever it might be. But you know like watching my parents, especially my mom goes through periods where she you know would buy a new car and go to a dealership and just sit there and I would be a kid you know eight, Nine, ten years old sitting in the dealership for hours and hours and watching the battle.

You know she just you know she just wanted to be real like give me the bottom line and let's go from there and they were using tactics and they were doing all kinds of crazy stuff and it drove her crazy. And I think it's just about being authentic, it's you know and this is the one thing I learned from them and I'm the same way as well. It's like when I find somebody I trust that I bought from, I will continue to buy from that person whether instead of stores, over the phone, it's at a company. Like I like somebody who I trust who I know will just give me straight answers, and if that's the case then what's interesting is that price doesn't matter as much.

Like I have dealt with people where I know I have paid more for items but I trusted them and I liked them and I knew that they were gonna steer me the right direction, and I was fine paying more for it right. And so I think that's key for me.

Daniel: Yeah and I think you're leaning, that's something that I think is really important in understanding too is that you're, you should end us a transaction whatever it was and whatever the result is whether it's a sink or swim or a buyer died. That person should walk away saying regardless of the outcome, I would work with them again. I don't feel betrayed, I don't feel like my needs haven't been met or that I've been, the wools been pulled over my eyes. You know regardless of the outcome both parties should walk away and say that this was something that we would try again.

Jason: Yeah for sure, I mean it's and then it shifts to relationships and we're talking you know like we talked about. I'm 43 years old so you know I grew up in a time you know there was no internet, there was no knowledge in the hands of most consumers right. So, you go into a car dealership, you don't know what the price that you should be paying or what the options are how much they paid for the car or what you could get that car for in Minnesota like you don't know you could easily do that definitely not at the time. And so the leverage of power was in the salespersons hand because they were the keeper of the knowledge right.

It's the classic real estate model where real estate agents have had the power because they had all the knowledge of the market and houses and prices and access to everything. And then with the internet that shifted, so consumers had the same amount of knowledge and the playing field was much more level. And so you know that now especially with information available, it's all about relationships and you know somebody who you're gonna want to do it again and again. And you know one of the big things that I focus on with sales reps and with companies is using what you're doing, you're selling, you're moving is forward in one transaction but really the end game is all about the referral and the relationships.

Daniel: Yeah, I talk about this quite a bit, there is such a convergence these days of entertainment and sales. And it's always sort of like a performance element of sales has always been there, but you know increasingly so as we're in a world where there's instant gratification and constant gaining in all facets of life. If you're not interesting as a salesperson in some way whether it's from a product standpoint or an intelligence standpoint or you just know a couple really good jokes, then you're gonna be playing from behind as a salesperson.

And I always joke that comedians now finally have some side hustle opportunity in becoming salespeople, so.

Jason: But I would counter that though and just to kind of debate a different perspective, I think it also really depends on what you're selling. If you're helping let's say you know because a lot of my background has been debt relief type stuff, so people who are buried in credit card debt, buried in student loans or mortgages or you know things they can't pay for some levity is nice, some jokes are nice really what they're craving more is empathy and solution. And what I found works well, because it's a transaction they want to trust it professional more than they want a friend is, you've got to be careful about breaking into the friend zone.

And you know you don't want to go full-on mode, but one way to look at it is like a transaction just like the DMV. Sometimes the sales transaction even if it's a big ticket is all about just getting it done in the trust side. And when you go to DMV you know it's not gonna be very fun but you know they're gonna take care of you and they're gonna solve your problem. And you'll be you know hopefully after a few hours, you'll be taken care.

Daniel: Yeah.

Jason: And I think it would different people like you said with mirroring, I think with some of the prospects you talk to, some jokes helps and things help all of them are all about business some of them you know you just want the bottom line they just want to know, you know that speaks to them more than the joking you know sales person that wants to talk about sports all the time. And then for other people if you get to the bottom line too fast, you're gonna totally blow it and they won't trust you because they won't like you in that way.

Daniel: So, let me ask you then, how do you value report building? Is rapport building something that you would train around?

Jason: Yes, and I and I covered that in this week as well but you know obviously that's really specific for every industry. So, there's some high-level parts that I always focus on, and it's really the right amount of rapport. But like I said it's that friend zone boundary you have to watch out for. Because people don't generally like to do business with friends, they like to do people business with people that they like and trust and feel good about and feel like they will take care of their needs, but not necessarily friends, right.

Like most people don't turn to their friends and say here's all my money, can you be my financial planner & investment for me, you know unless they know that trust and true professional it could be really tough. So, I think the right amount of rapport and I think it's really you know back to your mirroring point it comes down to what does that person seem to be interested in and how much rapport makes sense, and then also how much time you have. What I see a lot of sales reps fail at is they go into rapport mode at the gate because they feel like that's super important.

And then they blow 5, 10, 15 minutes on rapport next thing you know they're talking about recipes and restaurants and sports and weather and then the prospect has to go. And they basically wasted 15 minutes of chitchat on rapport building, because they were so nervous instead of just get into the facts. Like a little bit of rapport and I feel like rapport is something you do as you go. I don't need to have a conversation with you what it starts out where we talk about sports and weather and where you live and all of these things.

For there to be enough report for me to help you as a professional, and as we go let's have more of a relationship and I'll sprinkle in rapport. Because I actually do care about you as a person.

Daniel: Yeah, and it's actually interesting to kind of focus on and finding that balance. And I think that every rep is slightly different in there from a rapport building standpoint. I saw report last year that was really intriguing and as you might imagine someone's putting data around rapport.

Jason: Of course.

Daniel: And one of the top drivers or influencers of sales from a rapport standpoint was identifying that you were from the same, you grew up in the same town.

Jason: Got it.

Daniel: If you identify that you were from the same town that apparently had the largest influential bump on whether or not that person would do business with you.

Jason: Interesting.

Daniel: Super interesting report.

Jason: It makes total sense, I mean you know people want to work with people they know and trust and like. And so obviously if there's a common thing that breaks the barrier. I have found in many sales organizations I've been a part of that did nationwide marketing either like part of the US or all of the US is the closing rate of people from the same state as the office or reps or call center was always higher. Because you're in the same state, it's like okay well where are you at you're in Washington, oh we're in Washington too or California or Nevada whatever that is. And they're like okay cool this feels a little more real.

Daniel: Yeah, if you're calling on people in Boston in the middle of winter and you're in San Diego.

Jason: Yeah.

Daniel: Really are close race.

Jason: You know you definitely don't know about the weather, you're gonna lose that that debate all the time. And so I wanted to go back before I forget you had asked me a question about what I learned from my parents. I got to throw this out and tell this story because I think it's hilarious and I talk about soul time. The other thing I learned from my parents growing up as a kid is, if you're gonna sell something to people right, especially where there's more than one person involved, husband-wife, close relationship, family you know an adult and then you know their parents are involved.

So, it's a guy and you know that his parents are gonna be involved in whatever this is right. So on the consumer side or even if it's business and you know that there's multiple people, multiple stakeholders who are gonna have to make decisions is, make sure they're all on board with it. Because if you sell to one and you know the other one was left in the dark it will come back to haunt you and it will come back to get you. You will get an angry call or something angry from the other party who felt left out.

And here's the funny story that this is this is partly why I learned this also in years and sales is, I remember being a kid this is back in the day no caller ID you know people called and you just answered. It was back in the day when somebody called you or knocked on the door, you were excited because that was probably somebody who wanted to talk to right. And so I remember my dad answered the phone and three minutes later he was grabbing his wallet and pulling out his credit card, right.

And this was just has turned out to be a cold call and my mom rips the phone out of his hand and it's like don't ever call here again, we don't want to buy it and then like hung up the phone and then took away my dad's phone answering privileges. Because he was just gonna buy, he's trusting, he was gonna just happen and my mom's like wait we don't need that. And you know if you're doing a sale, an opportunity you call anybody or talk anybody, just make sure you cover all of it or it'll come back and haunt you.

Daniel: That's good lesson.

Jason: yeah, I thought I was yeah, I just remember that so vividly it was it was hilarious.

Daniel: Man you got some wise parents.

Jason: Yeah, for sure I think most people do, let me get down for sure.

Daniel: Of course as do I.

Jason: So, what do you think, the last question I had or the thought I was having is, you know obviously you do in marketing right. So, you're a marketing guy you're driving you're focused on marketing you're driving inbound calls or you're doing campaigns which are making those outbound calls all right. Somebody's seeing the marketing they're seeing the letter whether they know your brand or not, website they fill out the form you know people are still skeptical. But, and they know that the salesperson is gonna want something and the company is going to benefit from it and they still need the help and want the help and call in or go in or do whatever respond.

And I mean it's just fundamentally interesting how people have this level of where they don't trust anybody kind of back to your point about Amazon where like literally there is no trust. But people still have need and they still make those calls or fill out those forms.

Daniel: Yeah and there's a trigger there right, and that's one of the most challenging things to uncover sometimes is, when and why you're actually being successful. You know it takes a lot of you know - to really uncover the individual elements. I used to refer to it as single variable isolation.

Jason: Well.

Daniel: Tech, yeah I know I just blew your mind with that, it anyone like lists even say it's like a text at like a paid search text ad. Any one of those words could pose as a trigger and the order of the words can be an entirely different trigger as well. And you're constantly trying to answer the question what was that trigger, what was the thing that that person saw and interpreted from my advertising or my ad unit, my webinar, my blog post. What did they interpret from that, that connected with either their expectations or their sense of urgency, their challenges what was that link?

And it's not an easy thing to necessarily come upon that right away. I think it's sometimes harder to find out why things are working than why things are failing.

Jason: Interesting, well on that note I think that's a great place to stop Daniel. I appreciate your time, this has been super fun not this standard show, turning a tables on me. I appreciate that, that's fun. Like I said I'm gonna include all of your information that notes, so people can find you. And you know I could see us doing this again and cover and lots more topics as you know I'm sure we could have kept doing on this one here.

Daniel: Let's do it again my brother and I'll bring some jokes next time and you tell me not to use them because -.

Jason: I will let you do the jokes, it will be great building rapport and Trust. And it will make me and the listeners trust you even more with more great jokes.

Daniel: Love it.

Jason: Alright cool, I appreciate that and everyone listening make sure you subscribe, rate, leave a comment. All that's appreciated this is everywhere iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, on our website Sound Cloud. But until next time always remember that everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you gave them.